Tag: WorkLab

TONYA MOSLEY: That’s Versha Sharma, editor in chief of Teen Vogue. In today’s episode, I talk with her all about Gen Z. She shares her insights on what Gen Z wants out of work, how employers can attract and retain young talent, and what the future of work might look like as the youngest working generation grows into leadership roles. Later, we’ll hear from WorkLab correspondent Desmond Dickerson and Hannah McConnaughey, a Microsoft manager and Gen Z member herself. They’ll fill us in on some of the most common work-related buzzwords that young people are using and what they mean. First, here’s my conversation with Versha.

TONYA MOSLEY: Versha Sharma, welcome. 

VERSHA SHARMA: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. 

TONYA MOSLEY: You know, I had a chance to check out your Instagram—I happen to follow you now. 

VERSHA SHARMA: Awesome. 

TONYA MOSLEY: And one thing that struck me was the freedom that you have to express your opinion on all sorts of topics. It really got me thinking that while older consumers, news consumers particularly, subscribe to a very traditional presentation of journalism, the facts essentially separated from opinion. Do you find that your audience of readers, Gen Zers specifically, almost expect for you to have an opinion? 

VERSHA SHARMA: Yes, absolutely. I think it is a very old, traditional worldview that believes in so-called objectivity in journalism, or neutrality—both-sides journalism. You know, millennials, and I am a millennial, led the charge in the workplace, and in newsrooms especially, to kind of dismantle those ideas and understand and try to make leaders and audiences understand that it’s okay for journalists to be human and to express their humanity when they’re reporting on a story or working on a story. And then I think that has only continued with Gen Z, who understand and demand that even more in their leaders and in their journalists. And so I think that’s where a lot of that comes from. 

TONYA MOSLEY: How does this sensibility translate in the workplace? You know, it wasn’t that long ago that workplace experts were basically advising against employees to reveal too much of themselves online. 

VERSHA SHARMA: Yeah, I think it’s also part of the nature of where we are as a country and in the world right now. And this also shapes a lot of Generation Z’s worldview. It’s the climate crisis. It’s living through two years of a pandemic. It’s inflation or a coming global recession, everything that’s going on with the labor market. They’re dealing with crippling student debt. Again, it’s really young people, including millennials, who entered the workforce after the 2008 financial crisis. It’s these groups of people who have entered the workplace at very uncertain times and at times when we’re dealing with really extreme problems. That’s why a lot of Gen Zers understand that you just have to be honest about where we are and be reflective of reality. 

TONYA MOSLEY: All of those major issues that you just talked about, Teen Vogue made this deliberate shift to focus on some of those bigger systemic issues, and global issues as well, back in 2016. It still covers fashion, relationships, pop culture, but also identity and politics. How has the publication changed from when you were a young reader? 

VERSHA SHARMA: It’s changed a lot, and I’m very excited about that and very excited to be part of that. I think, as you said, 2016 was a big part of that shift. You know, when I was younger, it was Teen Vogue as well as Cosmo, YM magazine, if anybody remembers that. It was all about love, relationships, dating, and of course style and fashion, which we do continue to cover, and it’s still very popular content among our audience. But I would say 2016 was just a political awakening for an entire generation. I think about 17-year-old Darnella Frazier, who filmed that video of George Floyd being killed by the police, and the fact that she was 17. She had to go through this trauma, she has had to relive that trauma over and over because of news coverage and through the trial. And she remains somebody who is still very engaged, at times hopeful, but also understandably cynical and skeptical of the system and the world that we live in. And she just stands to me as a really good example of this generation, who, when they see injustice, they want to capture it. They want to make people aware of it. They want to do something about it. And they’re not content to sit back and just let it be. They want to change it. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Gen Z is on track to be the most educated generation yet. How does that inform the approach to the content your team creates? I mean, you’re talking to an audience that knows a lot and has access to a lot of information. They want smart content. 

VERSHA SHARMA: There has long been a misconception in the news industry that young people don’t care about hard news, that they’d rather be scrolling on Instagram, looking at their favorite celebrities, and copying whatever hairstyle trend is blowing up on TikTok. And there’s no reason why they can’t do both, right, they can’t do all of it. But young people are incredibly engaged, incredibly informed on these issues. They’re hungry for more information. The fact that they are digital and social natives means they’re also more globally connected than ever before. They care about what’s happening in other countries, to their peers in other countries, because they see it and they want to understand how all of these crises are connected and what the bigger picture is. And so I think there’s a lot of incredible room for maneuvering for Teen Vogue. And that’s exactly the sweet spot that we try to hit. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Most Gen Zers have never experienced working in a traditional office. What have you learned about what they value when it comes to a work environment? 

VERSHA SHARMA: I think more than anything, they value flexibility. That’s again, of course, something that has come up during the pandemic especially. But Condé Nast is currently in this hybrid flex remote-slash-office situation that I think a lot of companies find themselves in. And that’s exactly what they want. They want that flexibility. They need that flexibility. Managers should be able to give that to them. But it is important to give them opportunities to come in person, you know, benefits or encouragements to do so. Because I do believe that they miss that they’re missing out and that they miss having that in-person human connection with their managers, with their peers, with their colleagues. I think they’re also hungry for training, development, and mentorship, and that can take place on any platform. It doesn’t have to be in person, but making them feel like you’re actually investing in them as leaders is also important. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Versha, up until the pandemic, Gen Zers were actually primed to enter a very strong workforce and economy. Things have shifted so dramatically. What is the sentiment you’re hearing from Gen Zers about their outlook on the future and the choices before them? 

VERSHA SHARMA: You know, I think there is understandably a lot of nervousness, a lot of skepticism, and sometimes cynicism. And so I think these experiences are continuing to shape who they are. It may be another reason why I believe statistically they’re more willing to job hop. They’re not as tied down to any one job for any period of time as previous generations. And so I think it affects their worldview and it affects their behavior. But if an employer can offer that sense of stability and security, then I believe they can retain talent as well. 

TONYA MOSLEY: We were looking at the Microsoft Trend Index that found 70 percent of Gen Z workers around the world are considering earning additional income through a side hustle outside of their day job. I’m wondering what that might mean for leaders as they think about designing roles for the future. 

VERSHA SHARMA: Yeah, I think when we’re looking at those statistics, I’m also curious how many of those young people feel that they need a side hustle, feel they may not be making enough money from their day job to support themselves, because I know that’s a huge issue. I just think that, again, it goes back to this idea of Gen Z demanding more and demanding better and not being afraid to do that because they see the inequality in the systems and they want to change that. What I would also say about side hustles is if somebody feels like their job does not afford them the kind of creativity they want, then a side hustle becomes an outlet for that. For example, our senior fashion and beauty editor, who’s wonderful, is also a deejay in her spare time. And she’s wonderful at that too. And so I think it’s also important to allow people to continue to pursue their personal interests as well. 

TONYA MOSLEY: You’re squarely a millennial. 

VERSHA SHARMA: I am. 

TONYA MOSLEY: So you’re in the middle between Gen Z and Gen X. As I’m listening to you, I’m just wondering, your thoughts on how a leader navigates three different generational expectations of work and workplace culture. 

VERSHA SHARMA: That is a great question. One of the first or most useful things I learned when becoming a manager or a middle manager is not that you just have to manage down, but that you also have to manage up and sideways laterally as well. Even being the editor in chief of the publication, I’m still reporting to Anna Wintour, who is my boss, and she of course does come from a different generation. So I think it’s being aware of those boundaries, it’s being aware of what those differences are, and adjusting your communication skills as you may need to or adapting to them, but also just being sure that you’re being clear, as clear as possible, when managing both up, down, and sideways. 

TONYA MOSLEY: The media has received quite a bit of criticism for focusing on the experiences of people on the coasts, on the West Coast and the East Coast. You were born and raised in the South, in Louisiana. How does your background maybe inform your approach to understanding Generation Z? 

VERSHA SHARMA: I love that you asked that question. It reminds me of when I first took on the job. I was speaking to our executive editor, who’s this amazing woman, Dani Kwateng, who’s been at Teen Vogue for a number of years now. And she pointed something out to me that I didn’t quite realize that I was doing. I was describing myself as a brown girl from the South repeatedly or, you know, different times in conversation. And she was like, ‘You keep saying that. Why is that important to you?’ And it’s important to me because it has absolutely shaped my identity and worldview. I grew up in the Bible Belt. I was raised Hindu. I was discriminated against both for my family’s religion and, of course, the color of my skin. I came of age in high school right after 9/11. I’ll never forget, on 9/11, a classmate yelled at me to go back to Afghanistan. Besides just being puzzled because my family’s not from Afghanistan, they’re Indian, for one thing. It was just that immediate rush to blame and discrimination. And unfortunately, we did see a national and global increase in hate crimes against people of South Asian descent. Of course, there’s a lot of Islamophobia. So all of that has definitely come together to shape who I am. I think a big part of my focus editorially is elevating voices from marginalized and underrepresented communities. It comes from growing up seeing these magazines, never seeing anybody who looks like me on the cover of any of them. Never seeing a person with a name like mine on the masthead. And I’m just really proud that I could be part of this generation—both millennials and Gen Z—who can be part of this change. I mean, there are so many South Asian editors in chief in the US right now. It’s incredible. There are so many women editors in chief. It’s just a really diverse generation that is now taking on these leadership roles. And I think that matters because it means we’re hearing voices that we have not heard for literally hundreds of years. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Versha, thank you so much for sharing that story, because what that also makes me think about is the building of more diverse teams. Teen Vogue is very diverse, and when you have a diverse team and you want people to bring their full selves, that means they’re also bringing traumatic experiences that they’ve had in other places. How is mental health addressed at Teen Vogue when you have folks talking about very personal experiences and things in their lives to inform the content? 

VERSHA SHARMA: Yeah, I think it’s incredibly important to us at Teen Vogue, both because it’s important to us as people on staff and it’s really important to our audience. You may have seen some of the statistics about the crisis of mental health among young people, in particular the ways that the pandemic has affected them, the loneliness and social isolation that a lot of them feel. It’s a real problem and we’re really concerned about it. At Teen Vogue, specifically among the staff and in the workplace, we encourage people to be as open as possible about how they’re doing, how they’re feeling, because ignoring it and burying it isn’t going to get you anywhere. I’m very open myself. I go to therapy. I’ve been going to therapy for years. I think everybody should, I recommend it to everybody. Multiple of our editors and staffers also go to therapy and talk about it. We’re also very open about things like anxiety or depression or other mental health issues that may be affecting us or other people on staff. And I think fostering that open communication and allowing people to feel safe in expressing how they’re feeling is really important. 

TONYA MOSLEY: How can leaders continue to support mental health efforts as managers are also dealing with the realities of shrinking budgets and other work demands? 

VERSHA SHARMA: I think even as budgets are being cut, you have to prioritize it. It costs nothing to be a leader or a manager with empathy—to show that to your employees, to check in with them, ask them how they’re doing and genuinely care about it. Again, we’re very open about it at Teen Vogue because it is so important to us and our audience. If someone needs a personal day or a mental health day, that’s something that doesn’t really cost a lot in the long run and will actually be better for the long-term health of an organization and staff. And so I think paying attention to these low-cost or no-cost things that you can do as a manager in the workplace, you can still continue to show that you’re prioritizing mental health in that way. 

TONYA MOSLEY: How do you think these future leaders will impact the world? 

VERSHA SHARMA: I think they’re absolutely going to change it. But I do think we have already seen real impact and change and we’ll continue to see this at the institutional and systemic level especially, because this generation understands the scope of those problems and they understand that they are systemic. It’s not down to any one individual but rather the collective of individuals, the entire community, the corporations, the people and leaders in charge, that it’s incumbent on them to address these longstanding issues. I think it’s fantastic and we’re all going to benefit from it. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Yes. Okay, so you’ve been the editor in chief for a little over a year. This is also a fashion magazine, so we have to ask you this: what is up with office fashion, and what will Gen Z be wearing to work over the next few years when they’re in their 30s? 

VERSHA SHARMA: Oh, man, when they’re in their 30s … that is a great question. I don’t know that part of it and I look forward to finding out. I would say right now it’s a mix. We’re talking about how much these employees value their individuality and their ability and freedom to express their identity. And so that’s a huge part of the fashion. We’re not talking about being flat or having bland corporate professional looks but being yourself, being trendy and stylish. You know, what we see in our workplace often are colorful blazers or, you know, dress-and-boot combos, lots of jumpsuits, fun and functional accessories, I would say. One thing I do love right now is the Y2K nostalgia trend. I probably should have predicted it, but I didn’t quite see it coming for how popular it was. So maybe in 10 years when they’re in their 30s they’ll be paying homage to 2010 fashion. We’ll have to see. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Oh my gosh, I think you’re right. What I’m also hearing from you, though, is that expression and the expression of your individual self is something that is valued with Gen Zers, they value that, and it also should be a value within teams and workplaces. 

VERSHA SHARMA: Yes, absolutely. I think collaboration is the key to success in a lot of organizations, and again, certainly across the news industry. That’s the only way we’re all going to survive, is collaboration. But what that means is you still have to listen to the individual people and teams and make sure people feel their voices are being heard, that their true selves are being seen. Because when you have that base level of human recognition, then people are going to put their best into their work. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Versha Sharma, thank you so much for this conversation. 

VERSHA SHARMA: Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed this. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Next up, our correspondent Desmond Dickerson and Hannah McConnaughey, a communications manager at Microsoft and member of Gen Z herself, break down the most common Gen Z buzzwords that relate to work. 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: Hi, I’m Hannah, and I’m down to be your Duolingo for kids. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: Perfect. All right, so tell us about the 5 to 9 concept. 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: So the 5 to 9 refers to either 5 a.m. to 9 a.m. or 5 p.m. to 9 p.m. And it’s really about putting some of that focus outside of those hours you spend working, what your job is, how that is part of your identity, and thinking more about, do you have a side hustle? Do you love your yoga practice? Even just romanticizing rest, which, as we come out of this hustle culture era, I think has been both really inspiring to see and I think hopefully in the long term, better for people. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: So the next phrase we’re talking about: explain to the audience girlboss. 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: Girlboss might not be a new word to a lot of you, but I’m here to tell you no one should be out there using it unironically. The girlboss kind of heralds this era, I would say millennial era. When I was growing up, that was all about the She-EO, the mom-trepreneur, and the girlboss. And now there’s this pushback, not only on how gendered it is, you know, don’t call me mom-trepreneur, I’m just an entrepreneur, but also the way that it glamorized the hustle culture we were talking about before and making your work and what you do this defining aspect of you instead of something that’s a part of a bigger life. So, for example, you know, Desmond, if you told me, like, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’ve been in back-to-back meetings all day’ or ‘I killed that deliverable.’ I’d be like, ‘That’s so girlboss of you.’ You use it with a little bit of a wink. A little tongue in cheek. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: Got it. Okay, so it’s passé at this point. It’s done. It’s canceled. Okay, cool. So, in a work context, what does Gen Z mean when they say gatekeep. 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: To gatekeep means to keep something under wraps, to keep it on the DL—down low—and kind of try to keep it for yourself. So maybe that’s a PowerPoint hack that makes your slides look just a little bit better than everyone else’s, or a really cool keyboard shortcut or something like that. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: Okay. Now moving on to the next phrase: sport mode. What does that have to do with work? 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: So sport mode is when you are in that athlete, like, let’s-go-win-this mindset. So maybe if you have a big presentation coming up, maybe if you’re ready to impress your boss, or something is going off the rails and you’re going into sport mode, you need to fix it. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: Got it. So the next phrase is flop. What does that have to do with work? 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: A flop is when you did not nail it. You did not hit it out of the park. It’s basically the equivalent of a sad trombone sound. So maybe the stakeholders didn’t like the draft that you gave them, maybe your boss shot down this idea that you thought was brilliant, or a meeting that you spent a ton of time planning for got canceled. That would be a flop. And then if that keeps happening and you feel like it’s this theme in your life, that might be a flop era. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: Oh, no. So how do you bounce back from the flop? 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: You go into sport mode. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: There we go. Okay. What does vibe shift mean? 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: That’s when you can tell the tides have turned on something. So an example would be the girlboss thing. For a while, that was this term taken on as empowering, as a badge of honor. And then you could tell that there were these cultural forces or a mindset shift that turned the tide. And now we’ve U-turned a little bit, and now it’s not it anymore. 

DESMOND DICKERSON: Got it. Okay. What is not it? 

HANNAH MCCONNAUGHEY: So Gen Z is all about sensing the energy of something, the vibes of something, like we just talked about, and not it means that the vibes are off. 

TONYA MOSLEY: That’s it for this episode of the WorkLab podcast from Microsoft. Please subscribe and check back for the next episode of WorkLab, where my co-host, Elise Hu, will be speaking with Harvard Business School professor Linda Hill about the new skills that help people work better now. And please rate us, review, and follow us wherever you listen. It really helps us out. The WorkLab podcast is a place for experts to share their insights and opinions as students of the future of work. Microsoft values inputs from a diverse set of voices. That said, the opinions and findings of our guests are their own and may not necessarily reflect Microsoft’s own research or positions. And if you’ve got a question, we’d love to hear from you. You can drop us an email at [email protected]. And check out the WorkLab digital publication too, where you can find the latest Work Trend Index report, as well as a transcript of this episode. You can find everything at Microsoft.com/WorkLab. WorkLab is produced by Microsoft and Godfrey Dadich Partners and Reasonable Volume. I’m your host, Tonya Mosley. Our correspondents are Mary Melton and Desmond Dickerson. Sharon Kallander and Matthew Duncan produced this podcast, and Jessica Voelker is the WorkLab editor. Thank you for listening.

TONYA MOSLEY: That’s our guest, Sarah Bond, corporate vice president of Xbox at Microsoft. This week she talks to us about games, or more specifically, what games have to teach us about the future of work. Today, 3 billion people on the planet play games, which have a unique and powerful ability to enable collaboration, break barriers, build rapport, spark imagination, and create empathy. Gaming allows strangers to come together and work as a team to achieve a goal, even if they don’t speak the same language, have never met, live in a different part of the world, or have different abilities. As companies explore new ways to enable teamwork, including forays into the metaverse, they can learn a lot about how to best proceed from games. Sarah is the perfect person to walk us through that. Now here’s our conversation. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Hi, Sarah. 

SARAH BOND: Hi. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Three billion people play games right now. I mean, there is so much community building that happens within gaming. We were talking about and thinking about what gaming can teach us about the future of work. And I know that you’ve been thinking a lot about that as well. 

SARAH BOND: There used to be a time in gaming where the device was the center of the experience for the user. It would be about the console you bought, the PC that you configured. That paradigm was built on a set of technical limitations that existed from when gaming really started to take off as an industry. A lot of those limitations actually don’t exist anymore, and we’re just sort of carrying forward that paradigm. People really want to be able to play the games they want with the people that they want where they want. I think the same is really true for how people want to work, right? It used to be that you had to come into the office to collaborate with people. The tools, the technology, the services just weren’t there to replicate the experience. I think that there’s so much about how we’re seeing work change, the idea that you can collaborate at any time in any space synchronously, but also asynchronously, using the tools we create. That’s very similar to what we’re seeing happen in gaming. 

TONYA MOSLEY: How did you come into this job? Can you share with us a little bit about your career journey and what led you to this role? 

SARAH BOND: Well, you know, I always played games growing up, it was a big part of my upbringing. My dad and I, the first game I can remember playing with him was King’s Quest II when I was six or seven years old. And, after college, I pursued a career up through the business side, but really focused on consumer tech. I worked at McKinsey, I went to business school, and then I spent a good amount of time working at T-Mobile. I started as the chief of staff there, and then I led strategy, and then I ran business development. Then I got to a point where I was running a few businesses. Then at that point, I got the opportunity to come to Microsoft. And after I’d been at Microsoft for a few months, the role leading business development for gaming came open, and it just really clicked for me to take that role, especially considering how much work I had done in consumer tech throughout my career, and also that I had grown up playing games. And I led that team for about two years and it was a fantastic experience. And after about two years in that role, we were looking at the opportunity and we realized that it was really important that we talk to game developers and creators, as Microsoft, in a way that was really tailored to their needs, and that based off of everything we knew at Xbox, it was important to center that in Xbox. So in addition to all of the responsibilities I had leading the commercial relationships with game developers, I also got responsibility for all of the technical tools and services that we build to meet their needs. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Microsoft has been thinking very deeply as well about the metaverse, something that we’ve been talking about over the last few years as a place to live and work, essentially. I mean, an example of this is creating digital offices to connect with colleagues, as you say, who are all around the world. What are you most excited about in this space? 

SARAH BOND: Well, what I’m most excited about is when people talk about a metaverse experience. They’re talking about a digital world that’s immersive, that can hold millions of people simultaneously who have individual identities and wallets and histories. And I look at all of that and I realize that, as Microsoft, we have all those capabilities because we know how to build a game, and all of those things exist in a game. That’s what Forza is, that’s what Halo is, that’s what Minecraft is. And so I’m really excited because we are in such a beautifully unique position to take the things that we’ve learned in the gaming industry about how to do that, and how to do that in a way that’s secure, that respects privacy, that has parental controls, and real thought and care in how it’s executed and infused in it because we’ve already learned all of those things as part of the gaming industry. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Right. I mean, and building that connectivity—one interesting phenomenon, as you mention, is how online multiplayer games encourage collaboration between two people who have never met each other in person. We see that with Minecraft and other games like that, but also folks who don’t speak the same language. So many industries are navigating ways, as you said, to improve remote work specifically. What can business leaders take away from the success of collaboration in gaming? 

SARAH BOND: It really is the only media forum where you can do something with someone and accomplish something in coordination with them. You may have never met them, you don’t necessarily speak the same language, you don’t even know what they look like. That’s very powerful and I think important in today’s society, where the breadth of the different cultures and experiences that we encounter is wider and more varied, and in some ways more difficult to process because of that than it ever has been before in human history. And so when I think about that in business, so much of what we’re doing and the things that we invest in are to enable that exact same experience, to take down barriers like time zone, and to auto-translate that makes people well understood. It allows so many more perspectives and also new opportunities for collaboration across distances and across a range of capabilities that before wasn’t possible. 

TONYA MOSLEY: You believe games can foster empathy… 

SARAH BOND: I do. You know, I think empathy comes from not just understanding the position that someone else is in, but feeling an emotion about it and being compelled to act on that emotion. And when you’re playing a game, you have to go through that whole cycle. You have to understand the situation, and then you make a choice. And so very uniquely, when you’re playing a game, either it’s because you’re collaborating with someone who you may otherwise not have met, or if it’s because you’re experiencing a story from a perspective that’s unique to you, there’s a level of empathy and shared understanding that can come from a gaming experience that is quite beautiful. 

TONYA MOSLEY: You know, many non-gaming businesses are focused on how to shift the ways its employees interact with technology, specifically building up the metaverse. What do you think the games industry can teach us about how to construct and engage in virtual worlds that people truly want to explore and collaborate within? 

SARAH BOND: So much. I mean, look, it’s not just about creating an avatar and putting it in a virtual world. It’s about there being a reason for being there—a why—that’s what games give you. They give you a motivation, something that you could accomplish. And it’s also about doing it in a way where people believe that they can express themselves in a way that’s safe and inclusive. And that core thing, I mean, often in gaming we talk about the mechanics of a game, but that’s really talking about that core motivational loop and how you make that one that’s motivating and delightful and that people can be included in. And I think that’s the key thing. That is what makes games special. 

TONYA MOSLEY: I’ve heard you say that fostering relationships with the people who develop games for Microsoft platforms is a major priority. And I’m sure you’ve learned a lot over the years as you’ve cultivated those game creator relationships. I’m thinking about what lessons other industries can learn as well from building those relationships as they think about a metaverse that allows its employees to interact with technology and deepen their connectivity and their working relationships with each other. 

SARAH BOND: In the end, all of life is the interactions you have with each other. As much as I think people like to talk about business being about optimizing a set of dollars and cents, the real value comes from the people who make the choices, build the visions, and drive the execution. In the case of game creators, we take it very seriously that we push the boundaries of making it possible for us to have a relationship, for it to be possible for any creator to bring their game to Xbox. And I want the people to build those experiences to represent all of the people in the world, not just people who are like me or have the same views. So building those relationships, but really extending them and making it possible for anyone who wishes to create a game and bring their story to the fore through that medium is important, you know, to run a good business. But it’s also important when we think about the impact that gaming can have on society. 

TONYA MOSLEY: You know, to this point, we have been online and in virtual spaces long enough to also know that they can be toxic. There can be negative aspects of it. What can the game industry also teach metaverse builders about encouraging positive interactions? 

SARAH BOND: We’ve spent so much time on this. It’s so important to us. We have the phrase, ‘when everyone plays, we all win.’ And that doesn’t just mean that someone can actually play, it means that you can enjoy it—that you go away feeling positive and wanting to go back. And we see consistently that if somebody has a toxic or negative experience on our platform, they don’t want to go back. It doesn’t matter. All the other stuff goes away if you went to have a fun time and you come away hurt. And so we do a lot of investment in creating the tools in the community that creates a positive gaming experience for people. We do it in our policies; we’re super clear about our code of conduct and how we want individuals to behave. We do it in the investments that we do in tech to monitor what’s going on in parental controls and settings that you can set so that you can go into spaces and feel comfortable. And we also do it in the community itself. I mean, one of the most beautiful things about the Xbox community is that we’re so clear about our intent. We’re so clear about what we want individuals to experience that when that doesn’t happen, the community will actually help self-regulate, will let us know when something is going on to ensure that we actually build on that experience and are able to deliver it. And I think it’s all of those things, continually iterating and investing in them and taking it very seriously, that’s important for us to bring to metaverses as they start scaling around the world. 

TONYA MOSLEY: You believe that playing games can stimulate the brain and encourage a growth mindset, which is from the influential book by Carol Dweck. 

SARAH BOND: When you think about what Carol Dweck is really saying in her book, it’s the idea that if you put in effort, it will lead to a different result. It turns out a game perfectly embodies this idea, like if you start out playing a game—this is my experience frequently—I have no idea what to do. Like, I get in my character, I do a couple of things, I die, or I get frustrated, or I can’t figure out a puzzle and the level seems impossible. But then I come back and I try again and again and again. And in the end, by the time you have invested that time in it and you’ve learned how it works and you’ve figured out the mechanics, a level that before would have seemed impossible or a series of jumps that you couldn’t have imagined being able to do, you can breeze right through. And the consequence of failing is, relative to some consequences in life when you try something risky, pretty low, right? You might lose some coins or something, but you’ll come back. And so I love the fact that gaming, just by its very nature, teaches you that if you keep working at it, something that seems impossible, you can master. And I’ve really appreciated seeing that in my kids. My littlest loves to play games. He actually regularly plays with my dad, which I think is adorable. I mean, my dad is in his mid 70s, my son is 8, and they will sit side-by-side and do this thing together. But he’s learning that, you know, because he’s little, that failure isn’t failure, that if you get something wrong or you mess up that it doesn’t define you. And he’ll have a reaction, he’ll be like, ‘Oh, but I messed up,’ and he’s crying and everything. I’m like, ‘Well, no, get back up and try again.’ And he’s like, ‘I can?’ And so I see him learning and growing through the experience of a game, and therefore being more willing to take risks or try new things in real life because he’s already built that confidence that applying himself can lead to a different result. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Yes, I’ve actually seen this as well firsthand with my 9-year-old who builds worlds with his friends and cousins within Minecraft. Which makes me wonder about what skills do you see forming for these kids who have grown up creating these virtual worlds or grown up gaming and building on this idea of a growth mindset? 

SARAH BOND: Well, you know, when I was a girl, I had two phone numbers memorized, I think three, actually. I had my own phone number memorized, I had my first best friend’s phone number, and my second best friend’s phone number. And I would probably call them in about that order. And the idea of maintaining a friendship when I moved away that didn’t involve seeing someone in person every day was completely foreign and impossible. So I think the number one thing, honestly, that kids are learning from gaming is the definition of a relationship and what it means and how you can engage with someone—[this] transcends being in person. And I really see my daughter, my son, you know, their ability to connect with and identify with people over many, many mediums is very, very different than I think our generation that just didn’t grow up building bonds in that way. 

TONYA MOSLEY:You know, the forms of collaboration and games can be very ambitious and intricate and require extraordinary levels of collaboration. What can leaders and people managers learn from looking at multiplayer games specifically, like esports, for instance? 

SARAH BOND: Let’s give Overwatch as an example. Overwatch has different types of characters that you can play. It’s a team game, so you play as a team, but you pick a different type of character and the characters have different abilities. There’s some that have healing abilities or some that are really fast, you know, they have different weaponry that are associated with them. And when people first started playing Overwatch, they didn’t realize how much this mattered. But it turns out that a team has a better chance of winning if you have the right variety of characters adopted. Now, the game is built that way, that’s how they built it. They didn’t have to build it that way, but I appreciate they built it that way because that is a wonderful lesson for all of us as leaders—because that’s actually how the real world works. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Sounds like I’ve got to start playing more games. 

SARAH BOND: You never know what you might find out. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Sarah Bond, thank you so much for this conversation. 

SARAH BOND: Thank you. It was wonderful to connect. Thank you for having me. 

TONYA MOSLEY: Thanks again to Sarah Bond, corporate vice president of Xbox at Microsoft. And that’s it for this episode of the WorkLab podcast from Microsoft. Please subscribe and check back for the next episode of WorkLab, where I’ll be speaking with Versha Sharma, editor in chief of Teen Vogue, about the wants and needs of Gen Z employees entering the workforce. And please rate us, review, and follow us wherever you listen. It really helps us out. And if you’ve got a question, we’d love to hear from you. You can drop us an email at [email protected]. And check out the WorkLab digital publication too, where you can find the latest Work Trend Index report, as well as a transcript of this episode. You can find everything at Microsoft.com/WorkLab. WorkLab is produced by Microsoft and Godfrey Dadich Partners and Reasonable Volume. I’m your host, Tonya Mosley. Our correspondents are Mary Melton and Desmond Dickerson. Sharon Kallander and Matthew Duncan produced this podcast. And Jessica Voelker is the WorkLab editor. Thank you for listening.